And Interesting Exchange On Brexit

Had this interesting exchange with a young friend on Facebook:

Jenni Hutchinson
6 hrs · Chandler’s Ford ·

Watching the news, and I don’t understand how these 8 economists have concluded that ‘free trade’ would bring down prices if we left the EU. We’re in a free trade agreement with the EU, which removes tariffs, keeping prices low.

The EU doesn’t determine our trade rules with non-EU countries. Those have to be negotiated individually, which has taken 10 years in some cases. So maybe prices could be lower in 10 years’ time, but how much would all these negotiations cost the taxpayer? Diplomats don’t accept the minimum wage. And what about the environmental impact of rejecting our nearest neighbours, instead importing goods from thousands of miles away?

Ewan Gibbs
The EU does have certain tariff walls build into it, especially on agriculture.
Like · Reply · 6 hrs

Jenni Hutchinson
Some, yes. But I don’t see the logic of ripping up an existing free trade agreement and starting from scratch. (Obviously I’m not 100% pro free trade anyway, but this is an odd argument from people who obviously are!)
Like · Reply · 6 hrs

Ewan Gibbs
I’m broadly opposed to the varities of FTAs we’re discussing but I think defenders of the EU, especially on the left, overlook the dreadful impact that the Common Agricultural Policy especially has had on farmers in developing economies.
Like · Reply · 1 · 6 hrs

Jenni Hutchinson
Maybe so. But I think opponents of the EU overlook a whole host of questions that affect ordinary people. I’ve said all along that I might vote differently under a left-wing Labour government. But as – for example – the Tories are busy trying to deport every non-EU migrant who earns under £35k, including vital service workers in shortage sectors, I don’t trust them not to similarly attack EU workers if we leave. Not to mention British workers’ rights and human rights in general.
Like · Reply · 5 hrs

Ewan Gibbs
Broadly agree on the migration point which is the main reason I’ll probably very reluctantly vote remain. I’m far far less convinced on the workers and human rights angles which seem to have been constantly evaded by British governments anyway.
Like · Reply · 1 · 5 hrs

Jenni Hutchinson I think this government would interpret a vote to leave as anti-migrant and anti-red tape, therefore anti-health and safety at work among other things.
Like · Reply · 5 hrs
Ian Thorpe
Write a reply…

Ian Thorpe
“The EU doesn’t determine our trade rules with non-EU countries”
WRONG
As a member of the EU we are not free to enter into trade agreements with non EU nations, we ceded that sovereign right some time ago. Only the EU Commission can negotiate trade deals and any treaty applies to all nations. It is written in the EU rules but is not mentioned in mainstream media or by politicians.
SO THERE IS A DAVID ICKE STYLE CONSPIRACY TO KEEP US IN (wink emoticon)
Like · Reply · 5 hrs

Jenni Hutchinson
We negotiated £40bn worth of trade deals with China last October. Maybe there is an EU rule saying we shouldn’t do that. But Brussels isn’t going to stop anything that brings that much money into its trade zone.
Like · Reply · 5 hrs

Jenni Hutchinson
I like the David Icke bit btw 😂
Like · Reply · 5 hrs

Ian Thorpe
Good bloke when you get to know him, my mate Dave.

And the China deals were specific contracts within the framework of an EU / China trade treaty. The US / EU deal TTIP, which gives American corporations the right to overrule local laws that might constrain profits (including rights to buy up huge chunks of the NHS), is about to fail because the EU has grabbed sovereign rights from members. But while the Americans demand EU nations abandon all protections including employment, environmental and consumer rights, they are refusing to dismantle their own protectionist rules.
And the EU are so committed to global tyranny they are prepared to agree to that. Fortunately Germany, France, Italian and other members can’t get the full support of their ruling coalitions to agree.
Like · Reply · 5 hrs

Jenni Hutchinson
Our government, meanwhile, was totally pro TTIP and will probably sign up to something similarly undemocratic with the USA if we leave. Which is why, as I said to Ewan, I can’t vote to leave under this government: I may have done differently under a left-wing Labour government. I would want assurances that my rights, and those of others i.e. my EU migrant friends who work and pay tax here, would be protected; and that the environment would be considered when choosing where to import from.
Like · Reply · 5 hrs

Ian Thorpe
The Conservatives, Labour and the Lib Dems are all totally pro TTIP. If it had not been blocked by business groups and unions in Europe and the USA we would have been obliged to sign it. Had the election gone differently Ed Milliband would have signed rather than Cameron. There was no option, even if Britain had slipped through a hole in the time – space continuum on election day and Nigel Farage had become Prime Minister he would have had to sign. That is the extent to which our recent governments (mostly Blair’s lot it has to be said) have surrendered sovereignty to the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.
Once signed the treaty has to be ratified by elected assemblies and that is where it would have fallen. And the New World Order (the reptillians) could not risk that so it is in limbo. And once President Trump blows into The White House he will kill it. Yay American isolationism, Teddy Roosveldt lives.
But vote leave and help topple Cameron. Corbyn will go too, he’s sold out to globalism although he always opposed the EU while on the back benches. In the political chaos that ensues, a new system will emerge.
Like · Reply · 3 hrs

Jenni Hutchinson
But nobody has given any guarantees on what that new system might be. Let’s face it, I have plenty of gripes about this country, but I can’t think of any aspect of leaving the EU that might improve it at this present time. It’s about interpretation. An anti-EU vote at this time will be interpreted by our right-wing government as a right-wing vote: a vote for less ‘interference’ of the kind that keeps people safe at work: a vote for hard-working net contributors to our economy to be deported (which the Tories are already doing to non-EU teachers and nurses).

Vote to stay: things stay OK, and I can keep fighting to improve them. Vote to leave: things could get a bit better, or they could become very horrible, very quickly, for myself and for people I know personally and deeply care about (like the very close friend who could become separated from her Croatian boyfriend because like most ordinary people, she doesn’t earn the £35,000 she would need to keep him here if we leave the EU). Sorry, I’m not willing to take the risk.
Like · Reply · 3 hrs

Ian Thorpe
Jenny, we could all die tomorrow, have you heard about the 40ish volcanoes currently erupting on the rim of the Pacific Ring Of Fire or the way the ground is moving like and ocean in slow motion in Yellowstone Park. If that one goes the people fried by the larva or buried under the ash will be the lucky ones.
Have you read Byron’s poem The Darkness, which is about the volcanic winter that followed the eruption of Mount Tambora. If Yellowstone goes it will be several hundred orders of magnitude greater than Tambora. If some geological drama queens are right, the earth may be about to be ripped in half.
but as the great French philosopher Cantona said: He who forecasts all perils will never sail the seas.

Here’s a feature on the Yellowstone caldera from The Express web site a few days ago.

Will Yellowstone erupt in 2016? Shock video shows dramatic shift…
express.co.uk|By Sean Martin
Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 1 · 6 mins
Ian Thorpe

Ian Thorpe and here’s Byron’s poem
http://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.poetryfoundation.org%2Fpoems-and-poets%2Fpoems%2Fdetail%2F43825&h=vAQEdvbYC
Darkness
I had a dream, which was not all a dream.
poetryfoundation.org
Like · Reply · Remove Preview · 5 mins

Jenni Hutchinson
Jenni Hutchinson I’m sure he was actually talking about seagulls. It was definitely something about the sea, though.

Can I just thank you for this discussion. I don’t think we’re going to agree, but you’re the first Leave campaigner who hasn’t got personal, and whose argument I can take seriously.
Like · Reply · 3 mins

RELATED POSTS:

Elsewhere: [ The Original Boggart Blog] … Daily Stirrer …[Little Nicky Machiavelli]… [ Ian’s Authorsden Pages ]… [Scribd]…[Wikinut] … [ Boggart Abroad] … [ Grenteeth Bites ] … Ian Thorpe at Flickr ] … [ Tumblr ] … [Ian at Minds ] … [ Authorsden blog ] … [Daily Stirrer News Aggregator]