The Logical Failure Of Science Fans

If it’s science it must be right, coz science is kool, right?

Thus in essence is the basis on which many science fans argue in internet comment threads.
A question posted on Quora involved me in a discussion with a typical member of this group, he’s besotted with science and argues from the perspective of a religious believer rather that somebody who questions things objectively. To the question:

As a scientist, is there any possibility that evolution did not give rise to mankind?

I had answered:

Ian Thorpe, writer, poet, free thinker

Answered Thu

Sorry I can’t answer because I’m not a scientist.
But if I was a scientist I wouldn’t be a biologists so I’d probably give the same answer as would occurs to me as a well – read retired management consultant: There are always possibilities. It’s often said that we evolved from monkeys, but more likely we and monkeys shared a common ancestor which might have been so far back it was just a blob of jelly floating in a primeval salt marsh. Nobody truly knows.
Likewise human intelligence. The theory that we developed conscious intelligence spontaneously as our brains reached a certain mass has been debunked. Homo Neanderthalis had bigger brains than Homo Sapiens and yet they became extinct.

At some stage we progressed from Homo Sapiens (man who knows) to Homo Sapiens Sapiens (Man who knows he knows) with far greater cognitive skills and the ability to handle abstract ideas than our predecessors. When and how that change occurred is a mystery and so far no evolutionary evidence has been found to explain it.

Did aliens visit us and get jiggy with girl troglodites? Was intelligence seeded in us by a perhistoric super – race that knew they were dying? Was it some form of supernatural process? Did our ancient ancestors eat magic mushrooms and experience an expansion of consciousness? All these are theories believe by some.

My advice is don’t think about these things too much, it has driven people crazy.

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Phil Dunlap

Thu

Studies shows that chimps also “know they know,” so that is no longer solely the realm of humans. Cognition and intelligence exist along a spectrum, like most other biological phenomena.

Reply

You may notice that while I, conscious of my lack of expertise on chimp and hominid genetics and evolution, keep things open, trying to point out there are a number of possibilities, but no conclusive evidence to support any of them. Then Mr. Dunlap, a science fanboy as we will see, jumps in both feet first, and without discussing any of the ways in which humans and chimps differ, or how humans possess several abilities that make us unique among animals, simply tells me I’m wrong and chimps are just as smart as us. Nor did he back up his statement about ‘studies,’ preferring to rely on the belief that because there are ‘studies’ that give the answer he, presumably a self loathing liberal, wants. I’ve never understood why so many lefties hate their humanity so much they feel compelled to belittle themselves and big up tree dwelling, turd throwing knuckle draggers. I replied:

Ian Thorpe

Fri

Other studies show that is not true. Baysean inference might have been a factor in either conclusion. That’s the trouble with scientific studies.
However Chimps and Bonobos are reckoned to have evolved from a common species about a million years ago, around the same time as homo erectus separated into neanderthalis and sapiens.
Chimps are pretty much as they were then according to naturalists and anthropoligists, we made the leap from sapiens to sapiens sapiens and now construct tower blocks almost a mile high, fly around the world in jet aircraft, and invent increasingly sophisticated ways of killing each other. Given that they have had the same amount of time to develop, I’d say chimp intelligence cannot reasonably be compared with human intelligence.

So why have chimps not evolved when we have? That’s a part of the mystery.

Reply

OK, plenty there to frame an argument in response to, but our science fanboy still prefers to rely on blind faith in science rather than logic and reason.

Phil Dunlap

Fri

What other studies? Look at the work of Frans de Waal, he studies primate intelligence exhaustively.

A spectrum means that there is a quantitative difference from one end to the next. But you can still compare them qualitatively.

Chimps have evolved, they have just not evolved into humans. Whatever environmental and selective pressures they encountered after the split were different than what our ancestors faced. For instance chimps remained in forests while humans ended up in plains (this is part of the reason we don’t find a lot of chimp remains, unfortunately). But our brains are remarkably similar. Most of what we understand about neuroscience originated in the study of primate brains and was then extrapolated to our own.

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Ah, now I get it, he’s a follower of one of the prophets of evolutionary biology, a man who has spent decades, and $millions of research grant funding on trying to prove humans are not unique, we’re just city dwelling, car driving, book reading, TV watching, internet using hairless apes. And I am guilty of blasphemy against that belief and the prohet who preaches it. To be fair to De Waal, he’s a lot more equivocal in his conclusions about chimpanzee intelligence.  But I’m not about to let Dunlap get away with such outrageous distortions in an attempt to undermine something I said in an answer which amouted to nothing more than, “Try to keep an open mind.”

Ian Thorpe

Fri

Other studies? Well here’s one.
Pioneering brain study reveals ‘software’ differences between humans and monkeys

Then there’s Thomas Suddendorf’s work in which he identifies what he calls episodic memory as a big part of what differentiates us from all other species.
Episodic memory versus episodic foresight: Similarities and differences

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/312/5776/1006.full
(you have to have hacking skills to open this one, but it’s not that difficult)
It’s late now and I don’t want to sit here all night compiling a comprehensive list, so I’ll leave you to continue in your own time.

Phil Dunlap

Sun

Uh, the first paper doesn’t say anything about chimp cognition, and he second paper crashes my app when I try to read it.

I suggest you read some of de Waal’s work. Here is an interview but his books share a lot of experiments:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/e…

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Ian Thorpe

Mon

No, it doesn’t. That’s because the research paper is about the things that make humans unique among species. And the question asked was about whether here is any possibility humans are not a product of evolution. Thus my reply concerned that mystery of how we humans developed our unique intellige…

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Phil Dunlap

Mon

Hahahaha

De Waal’s work is nothing like Pavlov. That is fucking ridiculous. Not only is he not the only one doing this research, it is now the mainstream of animal cognition.

No one is doubting that humans are unique, or that this was a result of evolution. But if you think pointing out how intelligent animals are is “belittling” humanity that says more about your own insecurities than the actual science.

Take care.

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Ian Thorpe

Ian Thorpe
Mon

You can’t answer my points Phil, so like a typical science fan you try belittling me. The fact is there are so many manifestations of intelligence unique to humans, any attempt to claim animal intelligence is on a par with ours is meaningless. And how stereotypical you are in citing my “insecurities” as the reason for my failing to be impressed with your obsessions. Accusing someone who disagrees with them or challenges the mainstream narrative of insecurity is another typical tactic of science fanboys. I’m not insecure but completely comfortable with myself, I love and admire humans, I love our culture and achievements. And once again I remind you the thread was not about comparing chimps ability, when trained, to perform circus tricks, to human intelligence it was about evolution. I have no interest in De Waal’s work , which I’m happy to hear has now been stopped because it was forcing chimps to behave in unnatural ways. Neither have I any interest in Chimpanzees, thus I’m not impressed with those TV documentaries in which chimps are filmed and research grant phishing naturalists give them human but childish names, and attach human emotions and motivations to the purely chimpanzee things they do. As for De Waal, I notice he has been exposed as a fraud. When his experiments were repeated the results were not reproduced. He also made a big thing of his ‘discovery’ that chimps are empathic. Unfortunately it was already known that most simians can be empathic, as can dogs, bears, horses, parrots and many other animals. But empathy does not equate to intelligence. Now be a good fellow and get back in your tree.

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Tags: chimp, evolution, human, intelligence